2018-01-27: Crime & Punishment

Meetings
,
1

topic

https://discuss.jordanbpeterson.community/t/fyodor-dostoyevsky-crime-punishment/73

podcast

discussion notes

@balupton’s

  • Stefan Molyneux: The Truth About Charles Manson - the struggle to become better, but the attribution of failure to oneself, and alignment to evil which can be powerful (until you are corrected by society - Napoleon), or alignment to incompetence and vice which makes you weak (the Drunk).

  • Alignment in the two evil ways are not sustainable, as there is always an end date. Alignment in virtue is the only thing that is sustainable - as it creates civillity and cooperation of collaboration and competition, rather than just collaboration (feminine - no winners or losers - no breakthroughs) or competition (masculine - teams always have time bombs as only so long until mutiny or crumble).

  • To some extent, Raskolnikov is correct - there are two types of people. His entire story proves this. There are those who can kill without remorse, and those who cannot kill. He hoped to be the first, and his assessment “his only crime was to not succeed in his convictions” is correct, although “only crime” is debatable. He was not able to align with evil, and the dissonance (internal jihad) wrestles within him, to the cataclysm of his fate - society self-corrected, through the virtues of law, and self-healed, through the redemption of the individual - and to some extent, with the alignment of universal human truths - the desire for love/courtship/recognition/virtues.

  • The moral seems to be - if you are not a psychopath, do not tempt it, as it will take you under - and if you are, then it is only a matter of time until your wits end, and modern society catches or corrects you, instilling fear (but if you love the fear, and the chase, then that too can become your demise).

Summary:

  • Laws invented by the strong to keep the weak weak, if you can be strong, you can write the rules

  • Stefan Molyneux: The Truth About Charles Manson

  • Corollary of Acceptance, Redemption, Forgiveness, and Retribution

    • Monroe - If you can’t accept me at my worst, you don’t deserve me at my best

    • Similarities

      • Marmeladov (the dunk) and Katerina

        • Katerina did not accept Marmeladov’s worst, only his best

        • Marmeladov was never able to resolve his dissonance

      • Svidrigailov and Donya

        • Donya rejected Svidrigailov’s ideals

        • Marmeladov resolved his dissonance, through acceptance of the rejection, and through suicide

      • Raskolnikov and Sonya

        • Sonya accepted Raskolnikov’s worse, and that enabled the space for his redemption

    • Cognitive Dissonance

      • Ideal Self

        • Raskolnikov’s ideal was a psychopath, Napoleon

        • Marmeladov’s** ideal and should **was a good husband, father, and provider

      • Should Self

        • Raskolnikov’s should was a good son and patron

      • Actual Self

        • Marmeladov’s actual was a drunk

        • Raskolnikov’s actual was a coward, and everyday human

  • Tests for morality

    • Has to allow yourself to sleep easy at night

      • Not just biological morality, as cheating is in line with biology

        • Sacrifice, Selfishness

    • Has to be sustainable if the entire world followed it

      • Balance between masculine and feminine

    • Has to be scalable where the entire world would follow it

      • People are different, you can’t be tyrannical

        • West vs Islam

  • It is the times when those are accomplished we remember, Hu Yaobang at Tiananmen Square