2017-04-22: Maps of Meaning #9



discussion notes

  • Video by An Ear for Men

    • He is correct that Peterson has not conducted a survey of MGTOWs, so he has no evidence that it is older men who teach younger men etc.

    • He misinterprets what Peterson means by “women are telling you what’s wrong with you” – it’s not what women say explicitly, but rather how they act (e.g. men around you who have better social skills, higher salary, etc. get women and you don’t → that’s what’s lacking).

    • A clue is when Peterson says something like “by definition, you’re the problem” – he regards relationships as a fundamental part of life that brings meaning. If you can’t attract a partner or if you’re not satisfied with the partners you attract, the helpful conclusion is that you are doing something wrong. Opting out of the competition altogether will take away meaning.

    • How meaningful is it for unattractive, unsuccessful men who will never be able to attract a woman to try even though they will most likely fail? Is competing always the right decision?

      • How many are these unwanted men? 10-20%?
    • MGTOWs offer no solution – MRAs do (and Peterson too).

  • Women could get children first and get an education later (suggestion from a student in lecture 9)

    • Makes sense, since women can get an education regardless of age, but they are fertile for a limited number of years

    • How finance it? Grandparents could help.

    • Problem: young people lack the knowledge and experience which might make a relationship last – might lead to a lot of divorces.

  • Problems with feminism

    • Women want successful men to marry. If men are discouraged from getting successful, that is bad not only for them, but also for the women who would have married them.

    • Focuses mainly/exclusively on one gender → get only half of the picture (don’t listen to men) → solutions to problems end up short-sighted

    • Women and men have different problems when they are looking for a partner or when they are in a relationship. If we just listen to the problems that women experience and reduce them, that might have unforeseen effects on how men act in those changed situations. The solution is to listen to men as well.

    • Feminism views women as tools to accomplish their goal of equality of outcome.

    • Suffragettes and the initial goals of feminism

    • First wave and second wave feminism were overall positive

    • Is feminism good for women?

  • What makes a man marriageable?

    • From the woman’s perspective: it depends on how desperate / selective she is. It can range FROM 1) Being ready to act as a decor in the woman’s life TO 100) being the highest possible in all possible dominance hierarchies.

    • Women are generally not desperate enough (hypergamy) → end up lonely

    • Physical attractiveness could be negative, used only for sex, but not husband material – less physically attractive men must put in effort in fulfilling the expectations of women (work on their character, get a high salary, etc.).

    • Money (provider role), social status and strength (protector role), physical attractiveness (gene quality).

  • What do men seek in women?

    • Physical attractiveness

    • Youth/fertility

    • Chasity – less promiscuous women are preferred, since they are less likely to already carry another man’s child or cheat later in the relationship. In the context of ONSs? Also less attractive if women show unwarranted interest.